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Post by Mark on Jul 10, 2007 4:00:43 GMT -8
Marc,
I think you make an incredibly valuable point. We like to define along the lines of uses and thems. It's importantto remember that when it comes to lifestyle and behavior, we're not all uses... we're all thems. There is none righteous, no not one. Often I see one side (our side) thumbing our noses from behind Messiah's skirt-tale shouting, "Well, at least we're better than you!" mature, huh.
It very much goes cack to Messiah's message in Matthew 5-7: that take not the speck from thy brother's eye part. If our focus is upon learning to live rightly in our obedience to Adonai; we don't have the time nor energy to be comparing ourselves to those who are on a different walk. God called us to be candles, not spotlights. We are to shine in the window for all the world to see... not flashlights, searching the kichen floor for cockroaches.
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Tyler
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Post by Tyler on Apr 5, 2008 12:16:11 GMT -8
I would also like to know How does one become saved? There are many many good scriptures about this. I personally think Acts 2 sums it up nicely (especially verses 37-39). After the crows heard Peter's (Spirit-empowered) preaching of the Word, they were convicted and believed what he said. The Word says (vv.37-39): "Peter's words convicted them deeply, and they said to him and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?" Peter replied, "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you and to your children, and even to the Gentiles all who have been called by the Lord our God."
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Post by alon on Jul 27, 2013 19:30:05 GMT -8
Salvation does not come by works or obeying commandments. ... I believe that observance is not necessary for salvation ... ... I was becoming too legalistic ... For me I was getting so focused on observance I got sidetracked on the Commandments that all the other commandments hang on. ... So I'm trying to refocus my whole deal of obedience, while strongly keeping in mind that weightier matters of loving God and neighbor, could at any time have me abandon or alter my course of obedience to what is fitting in the Lord. Same vision, different approach if you will. (I know this is an old post, but ...) Marc, it sounds to me like you are moving away from Observant Messianism and toward traditional dispensational thinking. You already display one dispensational trait: you only quote the part of scripture you like. Read your reference in context- Matt 22:36 "Rabbi, which of the mitzvot in the is the most important?" 37 He told him, "`You are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.' 38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah. 39 And a second is similar to it, `You are to love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All of the and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot." Note that the and the prophets were not excluded, but that HaMoshiach made a point to include them! Maybe He meant it when He said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." John 14:15 Dan C note: not saying salvation depends on works; this has been adequately addressed already. Just replying to what appears to be thinly veiled dispensational "faith only" doctrine. And even the word " faith" could usually be better translated " trust."
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Jul 28, 2013 11:43:11 GMT -8
Wouldn't it be wise to define what "salvation" is, so everyone is on the same page?
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Post by alon on Jul 28, 2013 13:27:42 GMT -8
Wouldn't it be wise to define what "salvation" is, so everyone is on the same page? Shalom, TL! Good to see you here! You asked what salvation is. I suppose the definition would be ‘A state in which a human being is set apart by God, preserved from the destruction to come for those who do not trust in and serve Him.’ How does this happen? R' Reuel—“NO ONE can be saved unless he is born again by the power of the Spirit of Elohim. Messiah says, in John 3:7, "You must be born again." The necessity is absolute-you must be born again.” To be born again was a Hebrew idiom of the time, which if I remember correctly meant to have a complete change of heart and mind; to turn from one path and completely commit to another path. This goes hand in hand with repentance. Someone quoted Luke 13:3, “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” Repentance is more than being sorry, it is a complete change of attitudes, desires, and commitment. This kind of change was one reason for tevilah, or immersion in the mikvah. (Not surprising us gentiles got this wrong- there is more than one reason to be “baptized,” but that’s a whole ‘nuther thread). As R’ Reuel said, “Nothing will take the place of new birth. Mikvah (baptism) will not take the place of the new birth. Simply following will not take the place of new birth. Simon Magus was baptized (Acts 8:13), but when Peter and John perceived his character, Peter said to him, " You have no part in this ministry because your heart is not right before Elohim… For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin." — A religious, but lost sinner.” Everything else is just a sign, but the rebirth, the change of heart must come first. The first thing in this turning is for the person to realize and admit that he is sinful. “Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.” Ecclesiastes 7:20. There are many good men, but no one who doesn’t sin, and regularly. The notes in my TNK for Lev. 4:14 say that atonement is only possible when the offender realizes he’s sinned, feels remorse, and actively desires to rid the sanctuary of the resulting contamination. Next, believe in faith that Jesus is at the same time God and the Son of God from the beginning and always, made man he lived a perfect sinless life, willingly shed his blood and died on the cross for your sins, and after 3 days arose from the dead. There is no other way to salvation than through the grace of God and the blood of Jesus. “Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am."“ John 8:58 “ let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." “ Acts 4:10-12 “…, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. “ Romans 10:9-10 Of course, we believe that we look back to the Messiah, Yeshua, as well as looking forward to His second coming when He will come in glory, power and with judgment. Before His first coming, the Jewish people looked forward and trusted that God would send the Messiah. It is important to note that they were saved in the same manner, by the grace of God through their faith. No one ever kept the law perfectly, so the law never saved anyone. In fact, its very existence condemns us all, because we can’t keep it. And as I read in Leviticus, offerings covered sins and purified the Temple, but they did not forgive sins. There were even some sins for which there was no acceptable offering; your only recourse was to fall on your face and cry out to God for mercy! I was trying to find that, but haven’t been successful yet. I need to though, because it is the same today; we must cry out to God for mercy to be “saved.” We must prayerfully confess (acknowledge) our sinfulness to God, repent (be willing to change), and pray forgiveness of God and his free gift of righteousness, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. By faith we are forgiven and conceived again unto eternal life through Jesus the Christ. We are justified in God’s sight, and now can walk in newness of life as a new creation in the Messiah. “Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.” Proverbs 28:13 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9 “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10 It’s pretty much that simple. The signs of salvation are another matter, but they include attitudes, works, and trust in God; and the indwelling of the Ruach. Another long thread if you want to explore that. Again, it is great to have you here. Dan C
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Jul 28, 2013 15:33:50 GMT -8
Hi Dan, good to be here, and thank you for the warm welcome.
I couldn't help but notice that the above definition of salvation is pretty narcissistic in nature. Not only that, but the references given are entirely from the NT. I would like to break that post down into a few different sections, and offer some commentary from Tanakh, and Chazal. I'm unable to do that right now because of time restraints, so it will be in the next few days or so. Shalom uvracha.
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Post by alon on Jul 28, 2013 18:29:38 GMT -8
Hi Dan, good to be here, and thank you for the warm welcome. I couldn't help but notice that the above definition of salvation is pretty narcissistic in nature. Not only that, but the references given are entirely from the NT. I would like to break that post down into a few different sections, and offer some commentary from Tanakh, and Chazal. I'm unable to do that right now because of time restraints, so it will be in the next few days or so. Shalom uvracha. LROL! Yeah, but you knew I was a gentile when you asked! I can see how it might appear narcissistic to you, since you are Jewish and this is obviously from a the perspective of believing Yeshua is the Messiah. This does not however exclude the Jewish people. In fact, if you'll forgive more "NT" quotes, Rom 1: 16 "For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile." Most translations render this "to the Jew first, then to the gentile." Either way, it was never meant to exclude anyone. I wish I had the time to really develop this from the TNK as well. I'll keep looking. Apologize for the quotes all being from the "NT" though, as I really should have the "OT" stuff on hand. It is a project I've been meaning to get to. Honestly, being new to MJ there were (and are) some things I need to clear up in my own mind so as not to lead anyone else wrongly. That's why I was in this thread in the first place. So go ahead and ask, and I'll try to answer your questions. One thing I'm sure of, you'll make me think! Dan C
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Jul 29, 2013 20:26:39 GMT -8
I can see how it might appear narcissistic to you, since you are Jewish and this is obviously from a the perspective of believing Yeshua is the Messiah. My comment had nothing to do with ones religion, or racial status. It's narcissistic in nature because its only concern is with personal salvation. It does not mention national salvation or other types of salvation at all. This does not however exclude the Jewish people. In fact, if you'll forgive more "NT" quotes, Rom 1: 16 "For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile." Most translations render this "to the Jew first, then to the gentile." Either way, it was never meant to exclude anyone. Here we have another word that needs to be defined...besorah. If you asked 10 different Messianics or Christians what the gospel is, you would likely get 10 different answers. I'll reply to post #34 shortly. Shalom uvracha
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Post by alon on Jul 29, 2013 20:42:42 GMT -8
My comment had nothing to do with ones religion, or racial status. It's narcissistic in nature because its only concern is with personal salvation. It does not mention national salvation or other types of salvation at all. Well, darn-it, that sort of blows me out of the water. I see what you mean, though. As I understand it, the reason for all the fences is that by sinning one person could bring down God's wrath on the nation. So Jewish people probably tend to think in terms of national salvation as well. LROL, all my stuff from the TNK is on personal salvation as well! We (gentiles) tend to think of it in terms of a personal relationship with God. Being as He is an infinite God, I'm going to say both views are probably correct. Contemplating scripture I think that is safe to say. I'll give you my TNK stuff right after this post so it won't be too long.post Either that or a blank stare ... Dan
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Post by alon on Jul 29, 2013 20:52:25 GMT -8
The Plan of Salvation is illustrated in the TNK. God wants us to have a relationship with Him. Isaiah 1:18 " 18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.” That relationship depends on our response to God. Isaiah 55:7 “let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Psalms, 11:7 “For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.” None of us can claim to be righteous. Isaiah 64:5 “You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?” Our works take us away from God’s presence. Ezekiel 33:12b “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses” All our good works will not by themselves please God when we ignore His commandments. In order for us to be declared righteous we must have faith, which is trust in what God has and will do for us. Faith is the first of two requirements for us to be declared righteous. Our trust must be in God, not ourselves. Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.” Genesis 15:6 “And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Isaiah 26:3 “You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you.” The second requirement is that God make atonement for our transgressions. The cost of salvation is far too much for any man to purchase for himself. Psalms 49:8,9 “for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.” Psalms 49:15 “But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah” So our faith and trust has always been in God and His plan for our redemption. This plan was revealed in the TNK in the slain lamb’s blood at Passover, in all the sacrifices of animals, and in Isaiah 53. Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.” Psalm 51:16,17 “For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.” God does not change, and neither does His method of redemption. We are today redeemed in exactly the same way as Israel in the past- a substitutionary blood sacrifice. Isaiah 53: 4-12 “4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.” Micah 5:2 “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.” - The “ancient days” are from all eternity past, and speaks of God Himself. The sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish, perfect in every way concerning to God’s laws, only God Himself would suffice.
Ezekiel 18: 26-28 “When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.” This says to me it is an ongoing, active commitment. The initial choice is to each man to make. I had to make it the same as everyone else- “God is no respecter of persons.” (Sorry, just snuck in a "NT" reference there) And I must choose to stay on task. And it was the same in the TNK. This does not invalidate your point of its being a personal salvation as opposed to a national one. However God did not save nor destroy the entire nation at any time that I can recall. I think both are valid points, and my opinion has long been that the U.S. is about to find this out. Shalom Dan
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Post by alon on Jul 29, 2013 21:20:03 GMT -8
I obviously don't expect you to reply to all that point-by-point. I just put it up because you asked. I have it on thumb drive, so not much of a problem (though I did have to clean up the TNK part, and really it isn't complete either). But take your time. Meanwhile, I am looking at the Good News again. I know what it means to me- God has provided a way, Yeshua is our salvation.
But what would that mean to a Jewish person? Especially to a 1st cen Jewish believer? I'll have to get back to you on that one.
Dan
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Aug 5, 2013 18:15:59 GMT -8
I hope you don't mind if we discuss one or two references at a time, Dan. It can become confusing if we don't. God wants us to have a relationship with Him. Isaiah 1:18 " 18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.” I agree that G-d wants a relationship with gentiles too, but in context this verse is referring to Israel, not gentiles. Isaiah 1:1-3 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the Lord has spoken; Children I have raised and exalted, yet they have rebelled against Me. An ox knows his owner and a donkey his master's crib; Israel does not know, my people does not consider.
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Post by alon on Aug 5, 2013 21:23:52 GMT -8
I hope you don't mind if we discuss one or two references at a time, Dan. It can become confusing if we don't. Oh, absolutely! I don't expect you'll even reply to everything there. If you do we'd likely still be talking about it when Messiah comes (back ! I agree that God was talking to Israel there. In fact, I'd say He means the same today- if a person is not adopted into Israel there can not be that kind of close, familial relationship God desires. So if I am adopted into His house, I should be willing to take on the responsibilities of an heir in that house. It is one reason I am Messianic. My point was that His salvation is both personal and national/community oriented. Jews tend to stress the latter, while us gentiles tend to focus entirely on the former. It's why we appear "narcissistic." I suppose we are ... one reason I like these discussions, it gives perspective and reminds me of things I should know but tend to rush right past. Dan
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Aug 6, 2013 9:47:35 GMT -8
I guess the point I was trying to make is that there are many pesukim in Tanakh that one can cite to support the view that HaShem wants a personal relationship with men/women of all nations. Yehsayahu 1:18 is not one of them. One should cite scripture in its proper context in order to establish or support sound doctrine. I agree that God was talking to Israel there. In fact, I'd say He means the same today- if a person is not adopted into Israel there can not be that kind of close, familial relationship God desires. So if I am adopted into His house, I should be willing to take on the responsibilities of an heir in that house. It is one reason I am Messianic. I disagree. One does not need to be a Jew in order to enjoy a relationship with G-d. Furthermore, in the NT, the word "adoption" appears five times [Rom 8:15, 8:23, 9:4, Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5] and is exclusively Pauline. However, many Christians and Messianics choose to ignore the fact that Paul clearly states that the "adoption" belongs to the Jews, not the gentiles.
(Romans 9:3-4) For I myself was wishing to be an anathema from the Messiah--on behalf of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the , and the service, and the promises.
Paul's definition of the adoption is not a reference to gentiles being adopted into the family of G-d [as some suppose] but is a reference to the resurrection of the dead.
(Romans 8:23) Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
So I ask you, if a gentile is adopted into the family of G-d when saved [as some suggest] then why would they be "waiting" for the adoption?
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Miykhael
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Post by Miykhael on Aug 7, 2013 0:00:05 GMT -8
Shalom and Blessings. Lishmah, What about this verse? Isaiah 44:5 One will say, “I belong to ADONAI.” Another will be called by the name of Ya‘akov. Yet another will write that he belongs to ADONAI. and adopt the surname Isra’el.’ ” (Complete Jewish Bible) Adonai Will Save Those Who Come to Him.✡ (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y'sha' Yahu Isaiah 56:1–8.
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