|
Hell
Feb 6, 2006 3:25:11 GMT -8
Post by Mark on Feb 6, 2006 3:25:11 GMT -8
Is Hell a place of perpetual torment or is it a condition of final destruction?
|
|
|
Hell
Feb 6, 2006 8:37:20 GMT -8
Post by Blake on Feb 6, 2006 8:37:20 GMT -8
Is Hell a place of perpetual torment or is it a condition of final destruction? That would depend on who you ask. I do not believe it is eternal torment, but it must be stuidied for one's self.
|
|
|
Hell
Feb 12, 2006 13:41:21 GMT -8
liora likes this
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 12, 2006 13:41:21 GMT -8
Agreed, I have been down this road more than once and it always comes to an impasse. I believe (according to the scriptures) that it is a literal place, an eternal destination of the spiritally condemned. The most undesirable location for any being.
Shalom,
Reuel
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 1, 2006 9:14:23 GMT -8
Post by Blake on Mar 1, 2006 9:14:23 GMT -8
Rick my brother, I agree what Hell (or Gehinnom) is a literal place. It was a trash heap outside of Jeruselum where the bodies of criminals and animals were constantly burned. Rebi Yehoshua used this place as the symbolism of the everlasting contempt spoken of by Daniel of those who are judged for destruction. If Hell is a literal place where the damned souls go at death, what is the point of Lake of Fire that consumes the lost at the end of the Day of Judgement? Did not the Moshciach speak to his prophet Yochannon "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man the outcome of his works." (Ha-Hitgalut 22:12) If a man is rewarded with a paradise or hades at death, what is the point of the Second Advent of Rebi Yehoshua? No, the teacher was clear. The reward comes at the day of judgment, not at death. The idea of instant reward idea comes from pagan traditions. The Greeks and the Romans believed in pits of Tartarus or Hades, and Elysian Fields and Pardises. Such a idea is foreign to Judaism and was adopted from Pagan influence that would bring about the abomination of Christianity. Daniel {12:2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to and everlasting contempt. Death is a sleep. The Rebi often likend death to sleep. There is no consciousness in death. For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc. 9:5 (JPS) There is no afterlife in Judaism. Our only hope is in the Ressurection and Judgment made possible by El-Elyon and to believe in fairy tales like Hell take away from the unbroken faith we should have in this hope. Blessings to you all.
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 2, 2006 16:43:28 GMT -8
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 2, 2006 16:43:28 GMT -8
Rick? I didn't think he posted anything here. It is my belief that She'ol is most definitely a literal place where the souls of the dead await Yom HaDin (Day of Judgement). The tzaddikim (righteous) wait in Gan Edan and the ra'aim (wicked) are in another area which is separated from this by a large gulf. And no, this is not pure conjecture, I do have references for this... Sheol is merely a place where the souls of the dead go to await Yom HaDin. The tzaddukim to Gan Edan and the ra'aim to a place where good does not exist. To fulfill the prophecies concerning Moshiach ben-David and to usher in the New Covenant (once everything has been accomplished).
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 2, 2006 18:49:40 GMT -8
Post by Blake on Mar 2, 2006 18:49:40 GMT -8
"Rick? I didn't think he posted anything here. It is my belief that She'ol is most definitely a literal place where the souls of the dead await Yom HaDin (Day of Judgement). The tzaddikim (righteous) wait in Gan Edan and the ra'aim (wicked) are in another area which is separated from this by a large gulf. And no, this is not pure conjecture, I do have references for this..." I understand this viewpoint and it is quite different from the popular C*h*r*i*s*tian ideas on the subject. The largest point used to prove Hell or a similar concept is from Moschiach's parable of Rich Man and Lazurus. Parables are fictional stories designed to express an idea or teaching, we don't literally interpret the parable of the Wise and Foolish virgins or that of the Lost Sheep. If we did we would miss the underlying point. Plus, if this story is taken literally how could Avraham give a drop of water to someone acroos an enormous gulf? There is just no biblical basis that I can find to support a literal place souls go at death. References to Sheol as a place were just allegory to wither prove a point or represent the total destruction of the grave. However, provide me with verses which support your view and I will read and study them. I am certainly not inerrant. "To fulfill the prophecies concerning Moshiach ben-David and to usher in the New Covenant (once everything has been accomplished)." I don't think Moschiach came to fulfill prophecies, although he certainly did and will again. He doesn't fulfill prophecies for the sake of the prophecies, but for our sake, I think Moschiach came to revive a true walk in the and to bring about the redemption and judgment of mankind. The prophecies are fullfilled by this action, but they are the reason for the action.
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 2, 2006 21:59:20 GMT -8
Post by Rick on Mar 2, 2006 21:59:20 GMT -8
Well said Natanel ben-Avigdor, I agree. Here is a tract that makes an interesting illustration. "Every one has two portions, one in paradise and an other in hell." Acheer asked Rabbi Meyer, "What meaneth this that is written (Ecel. vii. 14), 'God also has set the one over against the other?'" Rabbi Meyer replied, "There is nothing which God has created of which He has not also created the opposite. He who created mountains and hills created also seas and rivers." But said Acheer to Rabbi Meyer, "Thy master, Rabbi Akiva, did not say so, but spake in this way: He created the righteous and also the wicked; He created paradise and hell: every man has two portions, one portion in paradise, and the other in hell. The righteous, who has personal merit, carries both his own portion of good and that of his wicked neighbor away with him to paradise; the wicked, who is guilty and condemned, carries both his own portion of evil and also that of his righteous neighbor away with him to hell." When Rav Mesharshia asked what Scripture guarantee there was for this, this was the reply: "With regard to the righteous, it is written (Isa. lxi. 7), (They shall rejoice in their portion, therefore in their land (beyond the grave) they shall possess the double.) Respecting the wicked it is written (Jer. xvii. 18), "And destroy them with double destruction." [Chaggigah] Shalom Brother oops, I have now
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 3, 2006 7:42:03 GMT -8
Post by Blake on Mar 3, 2006 7:42:03 GMT -8
First off, Isaiah Chapter 61 is speaking regards to the literal land of Israel! The interpolation "(beyond the grave)" would make 61:7 have nothing to do with the rest of the chapter (which has nothing to do with heaven or hell. The Rebi has grossly taken this verse out of context to support his view.
As for Jeremiah 17:18, it too has nothing to do with hell.
"Let them be disappointed who persecute me, but let not me be disappointed; let them be dismayed, but don't let me be dismayed; bring on them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction."
What does this have to do with any notion of afterlife either? The prophet was petitioning El to bring about an end to the men who persecuted him!
If the Rebi had to take these verses out of context to prove his point, you can see the weakness of his view when weighed with Biblical evidence.
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 6, 2006 20:20:08 GMT -8
Post by Rick on Mar 6, 2006 20:20:08 GMT -8
I did not mean the tract was my view, I simply said it made an interesting illustration. (which has now illustrated something interesting.... ) Yeshua speaks more of Hell than he does of Heaven. At the risk of covering ground already addressed in other threads, here's a few verses for consideration; 'the pit' The nether-world from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; the shades are stirred up for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations are raised up from their thrones. All they do answer and say unto thee: 'Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the nether-world, and the noise of thy psalteries; the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.' How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations! And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of God will I exalt my throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.' Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world, to the uttermost parts of the pit. (Isa. 14:9-15 JPS) 'Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, with the daughters of the mighty nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit. Whom dost thou pass in beauty? Go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised. They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword; she is delivered to the sword; draw her down and all her multitudes. The strong among the mighty shall speak of him out of the midst of the nether-world with them that helped him; they are gone down, they lie still, even the uncircumcised, slain by the sword. (Ezek. 32:18-21 JPS) Yeshua says: " The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:41-42), Yeshua says: "Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; "(Matthew 25:41), 'the abyss' He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.(Rev. 9:2) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Sheol gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Sheo were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.(Revelation 20:12-15) Berachot b'Yeshua
|
|
|
Hell
Mar 9, 2013 7:25:53 GMT -8
Post by yiska on Mar 9, 2013 7:25:53 GMT -8
here is my $0.02 worth.... I think Hell is when people are marked and will be forever slaves. A place on this earth for people who do not obey the Shabbat. Then again I could be wrong.
|
|
|
Hell
Aug 23, 2013 5:06:44 GMT -8
Post by visionary on Aug 23, 2013 5:06:44 GMT -8
I like the ending... they will be ashes under our feet. the eternal part is the punishment is conclusive and not perpetual.
|
|
Torah Lishmah
New Member
Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
|
Hell
Sept 15, 2013 3:32:23 GMT -8
Post by Torah Lishmah on Sept 15, 2013 3:32:23 GMT -8
I like the ending... they will be ashes under our feet. the eternal part is the punishment is conclusive and not perpetual. You like the ending? Neither HaShem nor the righteous find any pleasure in the destruction of others. I'll pray for you.
|
|
Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
|
Hell
Sept 15, 2013 7:24:34 GMT -8
Post by Miykhael on Sept 15, 2013 7:24:34 GMT -8
While on the subject of hell? I am reminded these verses in (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y'sha' Yahu Isaiah 66:22-24 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will continue in my presence,” says ADONAI, “so will your descendants and your name continue. “Every month on Rosh-Hodesh and every week on Shabbat, everyone living will come to worship in my presence,” says ADONAI. “As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will never die, and their fire will never be quenched; but they will be abhorrent to all humanity.” (CJB)
Hisgalut,Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done. The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire. (CJB)
It sure look like a REAL physical place for ALL those that rebel against Adonai...
|
|
|
Hell
Sept 16, 2013 7:00:16 GMT -8
Post by visionary on Sept 16, 2013 7:00:16 GMT -8
It states that we will walk on the ashes of the wicked. .. so I believe that hell fires will finally consume the wicked and reduce them to ashes.... probably about the same time that the old earth is treated to the S&G cleansing.
|
|
|
Hell
Sept 24, 2013 15:41:14 GMT -8
Post by Child_of_Yahshua on Sept 24, 2013 15:41:14 GMT -8
The lake of fire is real. It is a Sulfur Lake. It doesn't exist yet but My husband I been reading and studying the and this place is a real place.
|
|